Interview with Dr. Merrelyn Emery
Context
Between Thursday, December 8, and Saturday, December 10, 2022, I had the pleasure of immersing myself in a series of email exchanges with Dr. Merrelyn Emery, a renowned social scientist, who co-developed Open Systems Theory (OST) methods. Ever since I was introduced to the theory by Dr. Emery herself in a week-long summer graduate intensive in 2008, I fell in love with the theory and the person. I was still finishing my undergraduate degree, though my caring professors let me do the graduate class as an independent study for undergraduate credit. I’m so glad I did because that was the last time Dr. Emery was in Montreal.
Open Systems Theory methods have been guiding my practice ever since, so when she agreed to be interviewed, I was ecstatic! We agreed on an email exchange since connecting via videoconferencing was going to be difficult given the time difference (16-hour difference EST to ACT).
My intention behind this interview is to spread awareness of OST so that it continues to grow across the world and fuel other practitioners to learn and use it.
Thursday, December 8, 2022 - Interview Begins.
Dear Merrelyn,
I admire you immensely and I admire your dedication to Open Systems Theory. I have always wanted to interview you to see where all that intelligence and wit came from but I never dared to ask! I am curious about your life, as a child, a young adult, a parent, and finally, as a famous scholar.
I read a little bit about your childhood, although I would love to read a full memoir! You said you were raised in a matriarchal and democratic family. You spoke English and Nyampa (an aboriginal language). I read that your parents let you learn freely.
I would love to know more about that democratic family and how your parents let you learn freely. What did that look like in day-to-day life?
Dr. Emery:
Hi Riham,
I never heard of OST until 1969 when I was 29 and fell in love with it straight away. Fred and I discussed why we were both so taken with it and decided it was because 'they' (the societal dominant hierarchy, the institutions like the educational system) couldn't tame or domesticate us, not because of any particular life experiences. In a way, I think we were both primed for it and the ideals it represents, because in some ways our early lives were pretty similar although 14 years apart.
We were both born into relatively poor families although my mother and father were among the first generation to escape from mining into teaching. Our families did it tough during the depression and practiced frugality. We had both lived fairly solitary lives in the bush [refers to the Australian bush – less populated areas of Australia] where we were allowed to roam around with little to no restriction. We were both a bit socially inept when we were young but got over that to some extent. We both understood the laws of mateship and respected and practiced them unconsciously as part of our way of life. That was common at the time.
My mother was often sick so I was mainly brought up by my father. He was a man much ahead of his time, who believed girls should be treated equally in all respects. I was frequently also farmed out around the family to live for a while including my maternal grandmother who lived just up the road. My whole family was devoted to getting a good education, as best as they could anyway in those days so I was an only child for nearly 5 years. I had a lot of stuff packed into me including everything from Cornish cooking to minerals, visiting museums, and whatever was going on.
I know Mum found me difficult to deal with as I was not her ideal of a girl and preferred being under a car to wearing pretty clothes, and I was pretty independent. Dad didn't have a problem with that at all. Mum and Dad shared the cooking and all work although Dad did all the gardening and fixing things up. Mum was also pretty progressive as in Broken Hill [an inland mining city in Australia] she couldn't work after she was married so that is one reason why they went to the Aboriginal camp at Menindee. Not too many people were prepared to go out there so they jointly ran the school. That is a summary of my childhood until living in Menindee.
Riham:
Thank you so much for sharing this personal account about your family. I am touched and in more admiration which I didn't think was possible. Please feel free to write what comes to your mind. This gives me a better idea of your democratic family life. Thank you for sharing all of that.
Here are my next questions:
Were you a good student at school? What were your best/worst subjects in school?
Do you remember your favorite teacher? What was special about the way he/she taught?
Dr. Emery:
After living in Menindee, we moved to Bowning, which is a tiny little town 8 miles from Yass. There, I went to high school, where I had to do sewing. We saw snow for the first time that year!
Yes, I was good at the subjects I was interested in, which were most of them, and failed the ones I hated, like sewing. I wanted to do tech drawing but only boys were allowed to do that and although dad argued with them, they wouldn't change the rule. That was the first time I realized we lived in a highly sexist society as until then, I had only been taught by Dad, since kindergarten.
I remember a few teachers vaguely but they and school weren't really a major part of my life. It was easy and I did my homework but I much preferred reading books and being outside.
Riham:
The next set of questions might be a bit more personal but please answer what you're comfortable with and we can skip them.
I assumed you had children since you told me your grandson built your website.
Can you please tell me about your own children? What did they study/are studying and doing? Were they influenced by your own field of study?
Did you apply DP2 principles in your parenting approach? Did you apply DP2 principles in your family life in general? If so, how? Can you give some examples?
Dr. Emery:
I had 3 boys in my marriage and we (Bruce and I) brought them up to be independent and creative. Fred and I had a daughter later on and she is much the same. None of them do social science although three out of four work in the helping professions such as youth/community/Aboriginal affairs and counseling. One does policy work in public service. They were all exposed to it [Open Systems Theory] while young as Fred and I often had work meetings at home and I know some of it rubbed off.
I didn't know about DP2 until I was 29 when my eldest was 7 but I think we just always involved the boys in all our big decisions or explained them, and they were allowed to roam around with their friends around the neighborhood. I always worked full-time after the first one was 9 months old and we just juggled things around to try and suit everybody. It would be much more difficult to replicate it today because there are so many restrictions today compared to then.
Saturday, December 10, 2022
Good morning Merrelyn,
I hope you're having a good weekend so far.
The Search Conference I led on the future of the Montreal Muslim Community was in the pre-pandemic-pre-George-Floyd era. It was perhaps not the right timing. Community trauma, lack of energy to invest in a society where we’re (Muslims) not accepted and many other factors influenced people’s mindset and willingness to build a real future in Quebec. At one point, half of the people I encountered in my community dreamed of leaving the province. Many did. Some came back. I’m wondering if things would be different if we attempt the same process now.
That brings me to another set of questions:
The last few years, after the murder of George Floyd, we’ve seen a shift in the mindsets of people and organizations – leaders are ready to openly talk about Oppression, Equity, Diversity and Inclusion. Although, I think that it was always fueling my practice since I am a visible minority. How do you think Open Systems Theory methods and DP2 (Design Principle 2 – democratic organizations) principles can support this cultural shift? Can OST be a means to tackle the legacy of oppression?
Dr. Emery:
I know we don't discuss it much but OST and particularly bringing in DP2 is brilliant at restoring some equality, equity etc. It is the only antidote to oppression that works in my opinion and that is because all forms of oppression spring from systems of inequality of status which is DP1 and what governs our whole society.
It drives me nutty when I hear of the launch of another 'culture change' project which doesn't include changing the design principle. They did one in the dept of defense which took years, literally millions of dollars, and guess what? The effects gradually wore off leaving it exactly the same as it started and females were still being treated like rubbish, in all sorts of ways, including rape. Still, they wouldn't listen although Fred [Dr. Fred Emery] spent a long time there in bits and pieces.
I have seen some really successful behavioral changes in some places even in the PDW stage let alone after it went DP2. Have a look at the section 'Implications for Minorities' in Further Learnings about Participative Design in the blue book, ‘Participative Design for Participative Democracy.’ I get so many questions about the effects on minorities which we should have written more about it, but honestly, I think we took it for granted as it was so obvious. You can't change a culture and fix the minority problems unless you move to DP2. If you look at all the ancient cultures, they were all based on DP2 and none of them had our problems with inequality.
Riham:
That is brilliant Merrelyn – I completely agree. It's so desperately needed right now and people are lost - just following the latest trend or the most popular diversity consultant online. Most of the time, when I look up credentials - people have not studied anything remotely close to cultural change methods.
There is another shift in the world: moving our work online. My first fully virtual project was in 2020 right at the tail end of the confinement in Canada. To be honest, I didn’t think it was possible to do our work online. At first, people weren’t as engaged as in face-to-face interactions (of course) but as the conversation got deeper and deeper, more and more people started paying attention and fully participating. At one point we had 83 people in one Zoom meeting with breakout rooms around different questions. This was a whole new experience for me! Recently, organizations have been asking me to work in a hybrid model – sometimes face-to-face but often online. How do you see OST methods translate to this virtual environment (if at all possible)?
Dr. Emery:
No, not really. You can use it as a reason to have a good look at DP2 and people usually find the effects of inequality and the nasty dynamics that flow from it accords with their experience. Remember you can always run an educational PDW so people get the full briefing so that some understanding happens.
I am so sick of digital and everything that goes with it. I think it is going to be one of techs we finally regret forever like nuclear. Why we rushed into it, I will never know or understand. As you may know, we did some groundbreaking work on the effects of TV (Choice of Futures) and I did my Ph.D. on the neurophysiological effects. Both are on the website (www.socialsciencethatactuallyworks.com). All the digital techs involving screens appear to have exactly the same effects, as the signal is not very different and uses radiant light. That is the real problem as we are not adapted to radiant light, only reflected. Look at what has happened to people since then, lost their memories, their attention spans, a lot of their intelligence, their understanding of how the world works, and their feeling of being a part of a society or community. Many people are 'highly connected' but desperately lonely and the mental health epidemic is still growing.
Distance techs like Zoom are ok for transmitting info and simple explanations, etc. It is totally useless for any sort of collective, productive, or creative activity. I avoid it like the plague. It is trying to kid people it is achieving something it is not, like people saying they are talking to each other over email when they are just typing to each other. The best thing we can do is be honest and learn what each tech can and cannot do. A well-thought-out hybrid is probably the best you can do.
Riham:
I too have a big uneasiness around working “collaboratively” online. It feels like an oxymoron. I guess we have to think of better ways to do things, especially that now people are open to meeting again - just not as much as pre-pandemic.
We’re coming to the end of our interview. The following questions are short answers to get to know you a little more.
Riham: What do you like doing in your spare time?
Dr. Emery: As most of my time is totally my own these days, I try to spend as much time working as possible as I know I am running out of time. However, I still grow a few herbs and leaves in 2 boxes and dream up interesting things to cook.
Riham: What is your proudest moment in life?
Dr. Emery: I don't think I have ever thought about any moments in my life as the proudest. I am pretty proud of how my kids turned out in the end and probably some of the problems or puzzles I have sorted out in my work, like the two-stage model [Search Conference followed by the Participative Design Workshop] for more reliable implementation.
Riham: What is one message you would like to give to your admirers?
Dr. Emery: I don't want to say anything much to admirers if they exist. I am not an oracle but I am happy to answer questions if I can.
Riham: What about giving advice to someone who reads about OST and wants to use it in their practice? Where or how can they get the training necessary or what should they do?
Dr. Emery: I sometimes wonder why nobody else is really running integrated theoretical and practical courses. Plenty of people have all the material I have used so there is nothing to stop them. I didn't put any legal constraints on it as it is totally public knowledge. Does the department still use OST in any form? Is it still in favor there? If there are no courses going and I don't know of any, the best somebody can do is set up an apprenticeship system with one or more fairly experienced practitioners. But they should be careful because some of the practitioners I have heard of at different times are not particularly good. If they have doubts about any practices, they always ask and do not assume anything. Unfortunately, you can't get everything you need from reading about it so somebody should have a go at running it.
Riham: I know this might be weird, but it is the last question. Do you have a favorite chocolate? And do you like coffee?
Dr. Emery: I am pretty fussy about chocolate although I don't eat much of it. I like the fairly dark stuff and hate the sweet milky stuff. I mainly like it with salted caramel chips, chilies, or some nuts.
Love coffee, with milk both hot and cold, and also strong black with sugar and lemon juice, just about every way really.
Riham: Merrelyn, I do appreciate all the time you've given me so far. It was truly a pleasure reading your emails. Thank you so much for everything you've answered.
I'm so intrigued by the lemon coffee now! I will try it! Have a nice day! It is midnight here :)
Dr. Emery: The coffee, it has to be really strong, not like a lot of the watery stuff I had in the USA and Canada and you slowly add sugar and drops of lemon until you have a really well-balanced mixture of the two. You can only have a very small glass at a time, which will keep you going for a long time.
End of interview.
